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Poster: mzlizizaninja Date: Mar 25, 2014 4:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: did the 12 steps do in jerry? listen to npr...

http://www.npr.org/2014/03/23/291405829/with-sobering-science-doctor-debunks-12-step-recovery

be sure to play the the 5 minute interview

goodreads has interesting reviews of The Sober Truth, by Dr. Lance Dodes,M.D. and the treatment-industrial complex.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Mar 25, 2014 9:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: gotta do what you gotta do

I have seen, as we all have, many folks struggle. Some aren't with us anymore. I would rather they still be with us and be 12 stepping or rational recovery or whatever then dead.

Do we handle recovery from addiction well in our society? No. But many folks have seen another day without drink or drug because of the 12 steps. Some on this board. It isn't the only answer, but it apparently works for many folks- and has for generations.

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Poster: Reade Date: Mar 25, 2014 2:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: gotta do what you gotta do

Undoubtedly there are people who have been helped by 12-step programs but that's not what is at issue here. Did you listen to the interview?
What's at issue is the self-fulfilling prophecy aspect- when the program works it's because it's a 'good program;' when it doesn't it's the individual who is at fault.
That's just bad science. And our culture's illiteracy with most matters scientific is to blame.
The 5-10% success rate (equal to the success rate of people who attempt to kick on their own) of 12-step programs means there's lots of people who experienced 'failure' and as a result are potentially harmed by the experience. They though aren't the ones who tend to write books or trumpet their experience with the program to the same extent of those who benefit.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Mar 25, 2014 4:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: gotta do what you gotta do

One guy's theory is science?

I do not know enough about addiction to speak with much authority on the issue. I do know anecdotally many, many people who have been helped by these programs. Are there abuses? You bet. Please tell me of any human institution that doesn't have corruptions. That doesn't mean that we are to never question or innovate, but it should caution us not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

This is a life or death issue for some folks and I feel the flippancy with which it was presented is irritating, i.e. gotta get Jerry in the subject line...

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Poster: Reade Date: Mar 25, 2014 4:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: gotta do what you gotta do

Yeah, I didn't get the connection with Jerry at all, just chose to ignore that.

The many people you mention that have been helped aren't lying, as the interviewee stated. But that's often the difference between anecdotal information and data-based. Any program that has the same success rate as when people try to do it themselves (the control group)- simply isn't working as an effective treatment.
The extent to which the 12-Step stuff is self-fulfilling- I don't see that as anybody's theory. It seems fair to say that anything that's the customer's fault when it doesn't work, and a testament to the program when it does, ...is a rigged game.
As the coup de grace, when the 'science crew' starts breathing too hard down the back of their necks they get to fall back on the religious / spiritual / brotherhood aspect of the approach, effectively distancing themselves from any further discussion.
To me that's disappointing.

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Poster: midnightcarousel Date: Mar 25, 2014 12:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: did the 12 steps do in jerry? listen to npr...

The simplicity of the 12 step program is what makes it strong. It works for a lot of people. It helps if you already believe in a higher power; as an atheist it might not be right for someone like me, but thankfully I don't have any substance abuse problems.

AA has worked for many members of my family. It's not the only option but in most cases it's better than nothing.

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Poster: adks12020 Date: Mar 25, 2014 12:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: did the 12 steps do in jerry? listen to npr...

The religious aspect of the 12 steps can definitely be a problem for some. I know it would be for me. One of my best friends has been dealing with addiction issues for a while now. He tried AA meetings but always said he felt disingenuous while there because he is an atheist. While he liked that he could speak freely and was with people that understood his situation, he felt as though he was lying the whole time because he does not, and never has, believed in God.

The other issue is that AA and other addiction group meetings are known to be great places to find drugs and drinking buddies.

Long story short, AA didn't work for him. I know it does for some though and I guess the key aspect of recovery is trying to do something about the problem.

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Poster: midnightcarousel Date: Mar 25, 2014 1:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: did the 12 steps do in jerry? listen to npr...

The only thing you really need in order to stop is to truly want it. Everyone has the ability, few have the will. I think AA inspires some people, particularly those who can imagine a God of some kind.

Whatever works.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Mar 25, 2014 1:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: did the 12 steps do in jerry? listen to npr...

To answer the question posed, no.

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Poster: clashcity Date: Mar 26, 2014 11:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: did the 12 steps do in jerry? listen to npr...

Correct.

People vastly over look his diabetes in conjunction with his addiction to nicotine and how poorly he managed the condition.

The cause of death for most diabetics is heart attack and/or stroke due to the considerable damage even moderately elevated blood sugars exact on the cardiovascular system.

Long term drug use also played a large part in exacerbating those health problems.

Then again, it is not like he had the knowledge, options and tools that exist now for managing the condition.

But that begs the question - would he have even bothered? I wonder how often he checked his blood sugar.

Look at picture of Garcia in 1980 - he was only 38 years old... Does that look like a 38 year old man? And then look at him only 5 years later.

This post was modified by clashcity on 2014-03-26 18:52:21

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Poster: mzlizizaninja Date: Mar 26, 2014 2:03am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: did the 12 steps do in jerry? listen to npr...

Far be for me to see Jerry Garcia everywhere I look. The Betty Ford Center is a genuine effort to heal real pain. I'm just sayin, look at the single-minded focus of our health care system, courts, celebrity media and culture to shame those who fail to work the program, while perhaps not realizing that not all of us need the same antidote.


When someone I don't really know or care for told me Jerry OD'd in treatment, I was like, [you know, unsuitable internal image/language for children on the forum], I just blew them off and kept walking until I got home.

Hey Jude (love version) album: Love. The Beatles.

The Needle and the Damage Done. Live at Cactus Gardens, Perham, MN August ? 1979. Neil Young & The International Harvesters. 200 person crowd at local fund-raiser, I don't remember any tapers, not even Cindy Della Santina, who sat at my picnic table.

Your pick: